If Beckham and Figgins were 2B Elig...

[Kelly_Leak]

Where would Gordon Beckham and Chone Figgins rank in your 2B consensus rankings -- or even simpler what tier?

This may not be your exact order, or exact tier composition, but the approximate tiers are:

Utley
----------
Kinsler
Phillips
Pedroia
----------
Cano
Roberts
Hill
Zobrist
----------
Cabrera
Stewart
Uggla
Kendrick
Lopez

Personally, I have Beckham in Tier 3 and Figgins in Tier 4. What are your thoughts?

[Black Sox]

Where would Gordon Beckham and Chone Figgins rank in your 2B consensus rankings -- or even simpler what tier?

This may not be your exact order, or exact tier composition, but the approximate tiers are:

Utley
----------
Kinsler
Phillips
Pedroia
----------
Cano
Roberts
Hill
Zobrist
----------
Cabrera
Stewart
Uggla
Kendrick
Lopez

Personally, I have Beckham in Tier 3 and Figgins in Tier 4. What are your thoughts?

I have the same, not big on Figgins this year. Like Beckham especially for the dual eligiability and his talent.

[AllstonRockCity]

I'd put each of them at the top of the last tier, beckham 1st, then figgy.

[viper]

same tier they are now. They would just be in another column. Catchers have about a $7 boost in the C/Other style of CVRC. It should be $10 to account for the fact that only 20 catchers have positive value in NFBC style leagues.

[Kelly_Leak]

same tier they are now. They would just be in another column. Catchers have about a $7 boost in the C/Other style of CVRC. It should be $10 to account for the fact that only 20 catchers have positive value in NFBC style leagues.

I am taking this to mean you would place Beckham close to Zobrist...kind of at the end of tier 3. This would leave Figgins at the bottom of the list of 2Bman in tier 4.

[viper]

According to MB

Beckham is in the $16-$18 range
Figgins around $9 and
Zobrist $21-$19

Now dollars in a vacuum should equal value. What's weird is that
Beckham goes around round 6
Figgins goes around round 6 and
Zorbist goes around round 4.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder

[rotodog]

I will say this, I like Chone much better as a 2b this year than a 3b.....His offensive stat line plays much better there than at 3b.... You need simply need more Power production from that corner

The only way I would play chone at 3b personally is if I owned a cheap Ian Stewart type to play 2b instead of 3b... it is simply a swap, but the results are the same..Power /speed combo..

[viper]

are we back to SBs from 2B and more valuable than SBs from 3B. What does that do to Uggla's value given he has no speed. Our goal is to draft 14 hitters who reach a certain composite total of five different stats. Where they come from should not matter.

[Todd Zola]

are we back to SBs from 2B and more valuable than SBs from 3B. What does that do to Uggla's value given he has no speed. Our goal is to draft 14 hitters who reach a certain composite total of five different stats. Where they come from should not matter.

It's not a matter of value. It is all about availability of resources. Getting 30+ SB from 3B means you pretty much HAVE TO get pop from the middle, reducing your available assets as the supply of that is thin and it also makes all the cheap OF speed available less attractive. I'd rather get an Adrian Beltre than Figgins at 3B.

[rotodog]

are we back to SBs from 2B and more valuable than SBs from 3B. What does that do to Uggla's value given he has no speed. Our goal is to draft 14 hitters who reach a certain composite total of five different stats. Where they come from should not matter.

Actually, Todd kind of addressed it..It has more to do with roster construction, how much it will cost and the available stats for a certain category at a certain position.. I wholeheartedly agree that at the end of the year the standings do not care where the stats came from, but when you are not getting power from your 3b, you need to get make sure you are getting power from another position not known for power..... otherwise it diminishes the value of players like Denard Span, Shane Victorino or the super cheap speed in the OF as it relates to your team..You pretty much are forced to pass up on those speedy OF when they pop up in favor of potentially less valuable OF with more pop in the bat...

For me grabbing Chone as a 3b simply handcuffs my team into selecting players I might not have if I wasnt deficient in 3b Pop.... And I personally would like as many options available to me in the mid late rounds of a draft...

Potato/Pot-ah- to

[viper]

we all construct our rosters differently. In real baseball, the adage had always been power on the corners to include LF & RF, and speed up the middle to include CF. And along came Arod, Ripken, Nomar & Tejada and the world tilted on its axis.

Change is the only constant

[lawr]

i think figgins is undervalued either spot at $9.

and, i like beckham a lot, but, he still has not proved himself (to me) to be equal to aybar and bartlett, for example. i actually think kendrick and asdrubal, as well, are in the same league.

not that i don't think beckham will be ok, but, he does lack the experience and resume, and well, those guys have pretty much established themselves.

so, to me it then becomes a case of the speculation versus somewhat of a track record. which then suggests taking beckham at a place where he can deliver on that potential. take him too early (fourth round) and he really needs to give you a .290-25-90 season or so (kind of like tulo projects). take him in the eighth round, and that drops to .280-17-70 or so in my head.

i think what i am saying is that the ojective, draft or auction, is to turn a profit on players, and the larger the profit turned, the greater your success. and, in that sense draft picks do equate to dollar values, you know?

btw, todd does have a serious point when he notes pop from third base figgins does not provide. in labr i got kinsler at second to offset that. hopefully.

[rotodog]

Lawr,

I agree that at 9 bucks according to MB projections that Chone is undervalued. And with kinsler at 2b and some other boppers in the lineup, you can play Figgy at 3rd...But with figgy at 3rd, you simply cant own a MI of Asdrubal and bartett at the same time...

If Chone was presented to me in a mixed league at 9 bucks, i would buy him and make sure I paid whatever I needed to for other MI pop...Like you did with Kinsler... But I might also just buy another 3b with pop on draft day and DH him and stick a 1 dollar placeholder at 2b the first week of the season until Chone could be slid over to 2b....

Actually its not a bad tactic if Chone goes cheap enough or slid in drafts .....you can always get a mark ellis type to man 2b for a week...

[Kelly_Leak]

... But I might also just buy another 3b with pop on draft day and DH him and stick a 1 dollar placeholder at 2b the first week of the season until Chone could be slid over to 2b....

Actually its not a bad tactic if Chone goes cheap enough or slid in drafts .....you can always get a mark ellis type to man 2b for a week...

This was the precise reason I started this topic. I am trying to gather alternative solutions at CI and MI. It also hammers home the point that 2B has the potential to be even deeper after two weeks into the season.

[rotodog]

Well, thats why I supplied my assessment earlier... to give another point of view that wasnt being mentioned...As you can see there are multiple points to see this from, so I hope it opened your eyes a bit and gives you choices...

[Todd Zola]

Not sure ironic is the right word, but if the Figgins/Lopez switch is actually announced, the perfect 2B eligible guy to pair with Figgins could be Lopez as his perceived value will drop.

[Captain Hook]

Not sure ironic is the right word, but if the Figgins/Lopez switch is actually announced, the perfect 2B eligible guy to pair with Figgins could be Lopez as his perceived value will drop.

Finally the origin of the problem.....I am not sure who in Seattle management is trying to pull this off....Figgins is a better fielder than Lopez at 3B AND at 2B. Figgins will hit second, score a lot of runs and steal some bases. Lopez will hit further down in the order, hit a lot more HR and have more RBI and be less valuable in the other three categories. So WHY would the Mariners switch them? Alll they can do is hurt Lopez's hitting if he is worrying about playing third. If they are already both in your lineup and contribute X + Y, what difference does it matter which positions? The answer....

would logically be that
1) they have a tremendous prospect at 3B they want to clear room for regardless of whether that is this year or 2011.....BUT that is not the case; or
2) they have a potential trade in the works .....ideally trading Lopez for a third baseman they like better both this year (right now they are tied for first place in the AL West and have a chance to contend all year long) AND for the future.

But like on the Mariners or your fantasy team, and as Viper has said - it doesn't matter where the production comes from.....it is the team totals that will count.

In actual practice, I obviously have the same $ value for Beckham or for Figgins (mine their is higher than the mother ship) and changing their position for a draft does Nothing to change that......both would be right before/close to Michael Young as third basemen and at least for Beckham, after Cano and before Uggla as a second baseman and those are pretty much the same in actual draft results.

The one thing to take advantage of is that if you get either Beckham/Figgins as your 3B or better CI, then you take take a great spec pick for your 2B, better again MI - if that player, say Chris Getz pans out you are fine....if they fail then you can move Figgins to MI and move a player with OF/CI eligiblity in or get a better fill in at CI - maybe a Casey Kotchman.

As always TAKE WHAT THE DRAFT GIVES YOU and BE FLEXIBLE and not rigidly tied to a specific player(s) or roster composition!

[Todd Zola]

With all this talk about Figgins and his low MB value, I think we may be shortchanging him some at bats.

Past 3 years, he has been 442, 453 and 615 last season.

We have him at 480.

550 seems more reasonable, and there is some upside to that.

This will add $3 - $4 to his value across the board.

He is still less useful in mixed leagues as the lack of HR and RBI hurts, but he will be a $20 player in AL only with the bump.

I'll change the projection files this evening to reflect this.

For any Jack Hannahan fans, this will cost him some AB.

[aburt19]

Lawr,

I agree that at 9 bucks according to MB projections that Chone is undervalued. And with kinsler at 2b and some other boppers in the lineup, you can play Figgy at 3rd...But with figgy at 3rd, you simply cant own a MI of Asdrubal and bartett at the same time...

I can't agree with this. If you get Figgins, that means that you need HR from another position that you normally would
try to get SB. I agree that MI is one of those spots. But I also think that you can still get Asdrubal and Bartlett if you
decide to not pursue SB in the outfield (whether it's Podsednick, Pierre, etc) and concentrate on power in the OF.

Too many time we get locked into a certain way of thinking and don't look at all the possibilities, which is a problem that
I suffer from often.

[rotodog]

Perry,

I agree with your assessment of the 2b/3b situation as it relates to the Mariners 100%. You are dead on. And I agree for the MAriners that unless there is some real defensive advantage in the swap, it really doesnt make a lot of sense. It does nothing to alter the offensive production of either or where they bat in the order.

I will also agree with this statement you made:

But like on the Mariners or your fantasy team, and as Viper has said - it doesn't matter where the production comes from.....it is the team totals that will count.

The fact that your lineup doesnt care where the stats come from was never the issue to me. What matters is that you simply get the stats.

And While I agree with this statement for the most part, i have a slight issue with it.
As always TAKE WHAT THE DRAFT GIVES YOU and BE FLEXIBLE and not rigidly tied to a specific player(s) or roster composition!

To me its a bit contradictory... To remain Flexible and to be able to take advantage of what the draft gives is all dependent on the roster you constructed earlier and the supply of stats later..

As you probably read earlier in this post, I prefer Figgins skill set at 2b for the purposes of constructing a roster of stats.

And in a trading league or keeper league you can take what the draft gives you and work your way out of any real deficiencies after the draft. But in an NFBC league, it is a bit harder to do without trading and keepers in play.

My point is that if you draft Chone to play 3b for your team without making up that power from a scarcer power position, it kind of restricts you later in the draft.
If the draft is giving you players like Shane Victorino or Denard Span falling to a place where they represent great value, you almost have to pass that up for another possible lesser player with Pop.

The point is that MI/2b is littered with various levels of speed later on in the draft and that power from a 2b is a lot harder to find late in the draft to make up for your lack of power at 3b. It simply restricts my available pool of players to select in constructing my roster.

Now, If you have early round power in the MI or you are guaranteed to roster an Uggla/Ian stewart type as a 2b, then Chone could man 3b for you.

But if Chone is manning 3b and you have a very good MI of say Jeter/Pedroia , and a Kemp as your stud OF, it negates the value of the steals that other later round OF or players in general will provide. For me, it simply restricts my choices later in a draft so that I am not able to take advantage of " What the draft gives me" later on.

Although your preferences in constructing a roster may vary slightly from mine, I dont want to severely restrict my choices at all as the draft unfolds. I want my roster to remain flexible.

In that context and that context only, I prefer Chone Figgins skill set as a 2b on my team much better than a 3b that I am counting on for 20+ homers and the RBIs associated with them...

[Todd Zola]

We're delving into a bit of strategy which I have been discussing in the recent SI essays...

Obviously, you can construct a team with SB coming from 3B and power from 2B, etc.

My main point is in a draft, you need the pieces to really fall into place. But if they do, you may actually BENEFIT as guys that produce at the "wrong" positions are often undervalued. That is the upside. The downside is you are reliant on there being the proper stats for you. You are at the mercy of your fellow drafters. My preference is to make my early picks so that I can go in any direction I want later in the draft.

ALSO...

Keep in mind that we may be getting a little too NFBCentric at times, meaning we are thinking of things in a no-trade league.

In an auction, it is different. If I buy Figgins, I can then buy Lopez or Peralta or another MI with more pop than speed. And a I mentioned above, I may actually BENEFIT as they may go undervalued.

[rotodog]

Lawr,

I agree that at 9 bucks according to MB projections that Chone is undervalued. And with kinsler at 2b and some other boppers in the lineup, you can play Figgy at 3rd...But with figgy at 3rd, you simply cant own a MI of Asdrubal and bartett at the same time...

I can't agree with this. If you get Figgins, that means that you need HR from another position that you normally would
try to get SB. I agree that MI is one of those spots. But I also think that you can still get Asdrubal and Bartlett if you
decide to not pursue SB in the outfield (whether it's Podsednick, Pierre, etc) and concentrate on power in the OF.

Too many time we get locked into a certain way of thinking and don't look at all the possibilities, which is a problem that
I suffer from often.

Its allright that you dont agree...I am not always right either...trust me.

Can the scenario above work with Chone at 3b and MI of Bartlett/Asrubal ? I am sure there is a way...

But it all depends on the circumstances. If you are in a Keeper league and you have a keeper list of 4 absolute MAshing, Slugging OFer's and Tex at 1b already, then it could work...

Or, If you are in a mixed auction as opposed to a draft, then you can allocate your money to only mashing OFer's and 1b. But in a draft league, you can not guarnatee to get the mashers you want because others may grab them ahead of you. Its simply supply and demand for me...

But I still feel a strategy with a 3b of Figgins and no power coming from the MI has a very narrow margin of error to be successful.

In Lawrs context of an AL only auction redraft league with no keepers, I dont feel that the MI I described could be pulled off because you have only a certain amount of money and a certain amount of resources hitting HRs in an american league OF.

You will need 5 OFers and a 1b to each bang 30 HRs to allow this to work. And that will cost you more than twice the 260 budget you are restricted to in an AL Auction. There are only so many HRs to be had in an AL league.

This simply wont allow you to own a very good and expensive AL only Outfield of
Rios
Sizemore
Abreu
Adam Jones
Shin Soo choo

That is an absolute Stacked AL only outfield that would cost you in excess of 125 bucks and with the MI you put together, it will not make the targets you need to win. it will also not allow much money to construct the rest of your roster seeing as you need to buy figgins and the MI on top of a 30 HR hitting 1b...
The Sbs those OF are giving you are also worth less...Its a lot easier to pay for the HR/RBI and grab some additional steals from these guys or some cheap Sbs from a MI towards the end...

AM I wrong? I dont mind being wrong...Somebody just has to show me I am wrong...

[aburt19]

Lawr,

I agree that at 9 bucks according to MB projections that Chone is undervalued. And with kinsler at 2b and some other boppers in the lineup, you can play Figgy at 3rd...But with figgy at 3rd, you simply cant own a MI of Asdrubal and bartett at the same time...

I can't agree with this. If you get Figgins, that means that you need HR from another position that you normally would
try to get SB. I agree that MI is one of those spots. But I also think that you can still get Asdrubal and Bartlett if you
decide to not pursue SB in the outfield (whether it's Podsednick, Pierre, etc) and concentrate on power in the OF.

Too many time we get locked into a certain way of thinking and don't look at all the possibilities, which is a problem that
I suffer from often.

Its allright that you dont agree...I am not always right either...trust me.

Can the scenario above work with Chone at 3b and MI of Bartlett/Asrubal ? I am sure there is a way...

But it all depends on the circumstances. If you are in a Keeper league and you have a keeper list of 4 absolute MAshing, Slugging OFer's and Tex at 1b already, then it could work...

Or, If you are in a mixed auction as opposed to a draft, then you can allocate your money to only mashing OFer's and 1b. But in a draft league, you can not guarnatee to get the mashers you want because others may grab them ahead of you. Its simply supply and demand for me...

But I still feel a strategy with a 3b of Figgins and no power coming from the MI has a very narrow margin of error to be successful.

In Lawrs context of an AL only auction redraft league with no keepers, I dont feel that the MI I described could be pulled off because you have only a certain amount of money and a certain amount of resources hitting HRs in an american league OF.

You will need 5 OFers and a 1b to each bang 30 HRs to allow this to work. And that will cost you more than twice the 260 budget you are restricted to in an AL Auction. There are only so many HRs to be had in an AL league.

This simply wont allow you to own a very good and expensive AL only Outfield of
Rios
Sizemore
Abreu
Adam Jones
Shin Soo choo

That is an absolute Stacked AL only outfield that would cost you in excess of 125 bucks and with the MI you put together, it will not make the targets you need to win. it will also not allow much money to construct the rest of your roster seeing as you need to buy figgins and the MI on top of a 30 HR hitting 1b...
The Sbs those OF are giving you are also worth less...Its a lot easier to pay for the HR/RBI and grab some additional steals from these guys or some cheap Sbs from a MI towards the end...

AM I wrong? I dont mind being wrong...Somebody just has to show me I am wrong...

I wouln't say wrong. But if you only think that you are going to get 20 HR from 3B and you are going to get a SB
outfielder that is not necessarily a power/speed combo, the you don't pick up Podsednik, Pierre, etc or you forgo
Alexi Rios and pick up a strictly power hitting OF instead.

If you are strictly going to get SB/power OF in a scenario where you get 20 HR from the corner position, that's okay. But that is a restriction in and of itself.

[rotodog]

I guess my point was simply that there isnt enough money and resources in an AL only league to make a Figgins 3b, bartlett/Asdrubal Mi combo work very well... And 20 HR and the RBi from a 3b is kind of a minimum...You can always choose to buy 35 HRs from Arod or Evan instead...

And now that i went and looked to help illustrate my point, consider this.

How many AL Outfielders does MB project to hit 30+ HRs? Answer? 2 Quentin and Cruz.. and neither are locks with a history like an Adam Dunn..

How many AL OF does MB project to hit between 25-29 HRs? 5

and you can add two more if you play them in the OF in Ben Zobrist or 1b eligible Nick swisher. But Most will play Ben at 2b instead.

So my point is that money aside, there may not even be enough HRs reasonably available in an AL OF. Factor in the fact that you have to spend a finite amount of money to buy them and it remains a risky strategy at best...

[viper]

Todd's point that "we may be getting a little too NFBCentric at times, meaning we are thinking of things in a no-trade league" is well said. I suppose it is because the Rookie Invitational is drafting Sunday and many of the comments are from those members.

In auction and trade leagues, things do change. I can construct a team with Figgins at 3B and accumulate the overall power stats I needs. But that is at the auction table. Figgins value, at least his worth to other players, changes the minute the auction is over. Assuming I don't have an excess of any category, Figgins has a high value to me because he is a major source of my steals. He is unique as a 3B as he is a very low power/very high speed player. Who would want to deal for him? If he gains 2B eligibility, things entire universe belonging to Figgins changes. Gaining 1B eligibility would have no change.

[rotodog]

Vipe,

You are correct....As was Todd. This whole situation depends on the context of your league, thats why in each of my posts I tried to clearly explain the context I was referring to. Whether it be NFBC, AL only auction, vs mixed vs Straight draft..

So this whole thread needs to have this disclaimer: Everything within this thread needs to be carefully considered within the context of your own league. But I still contend using Chone as a 3b will ever so slightly restrict ones ability later on in most drafts.. Even if it is only a teeny, weeny bit depending on the league....

In any case, it has served as a catalyst to some great roster construction discussion.... And the OP has stated that was his intent...So I guess we served the purpose..