The Changing face of fantasy?

[WillRoy]

Hey all,

I'm looking for opinions on Fantasy Sports, mostly relating to the demographics (with particular interest in age) of fantasy baseball owners specifically as well as what the format demographics mean (meaning H2h V. Roto etc.) . I put this in the commish Forum because this issue has to do with a league I commish and it was thus the most pertinent of sub-forums.

I remember before pops worked for Shandler and was researching doing his own thing and got all the FSTA stuff, that the survey had some findings on this. I think they do a yearly one.

What is pretty well known from memory is that H2H is ever popular due to football, football has the bigger customer base.

What I am VERY curious of is whether,
A.) The sport is getting older, especially with roto, as the participants age. I have trouble finding many people in their 20's or early 30's (around my age) who take fantasy sports seriously. I don't think it's the area, as baseball is very popular in Connecticut. And mostly, the interest is with football. The friends of mine that do fantasy baseball don't take it seriously. Mostly some free leagues like Yahoo.

B.) I think there needs to be some sort of push by MLB or the industry perhaps, to market to a younger age-group.

I guess based on what knowledge I have of the industry, I would guess this issue related to the game as a whole.
-Selig's lack of changes to the game itself (great article on BP on his ribbon committee for changes and how its not made up of people likely to change the game in meaningful ways). Also, perhaps even moreso, the MLB CDM lawsuit's impact on the game.

This relates to my commishing a league (and the leagues I've helped commish in the past) because I find it difficult to find too many people in-person to recruit and online leagues certainly have their downsides. Luckily over so many years of finding online people, I've managed to meet a few of them in person and even develop friendship's outside of fantasy sports.

Just to add more of a point to the post: Is there any hope in the foreseeable future for fantasy baseballto grow younger and more popular than it is now?

[JP Kastner]

I've talked with many people about fantasy sports and I've come up with my own conclusions.

Fantasy Football will always be more popular because it is a much simpler game. You have only 17 weeks in the season and the luck dynamic is so huge that even if you don't know what you are doing, there is a chance that you can compete.

Fantasy Baseball is a marathon. It requires long-term thinking. If you dump saves in the auction and trade for it later, your trying to measure where you are going to be in two months. That immediately removes 80% of the population from the interest pool.

For kids, baseball requires equipment, a bunch of kids, a sunny day and much practice to do it right. Other sports like Soccer just require a ball. Good or bad, the times have changed. The summer no longer means the neighborhood kids going to the park and playing baseball.

Unless Selig decides to invent "Arena EX-Ultimate Strikeout 3000" baseball with full contact base running and only two-to-five players per side, I don't think changing the game would have any affect at all.

JP

[Todd Zola]

Just to add more of a point to the post: Is there any hope in the foreseeable future for fantasy baseballto grow younger and more popular than it is now?

I'll just address this...

It is. It has been but....

Except as you note, it is not growing in the format(s) some of us old-schoolers prefer.

The trend is towards the more M-TV, short attention span audience. So H2H and smaller lineups pervade.

If you look at the demographics of those attending Ron Shandler's First Pitch Forums, it is pretty easy to recognize the generational gap in the level and type of games played. The audience mean is likely in the high 40s.

As someone in the industry, I am okay with this -- I just now make it my goal as part of this site to attract those wanting more than Yahoo or whatever. There are enough young people playing that we only need a small amount to desire to keep maturing in the way they play the game.

But yeah, it can be quite frustrating for those 20 or 30 wanting to compete against a zealous group of similarly aged competitors, especially in a live-drafting league where there may be periodic league meetings at the local watering hole, etc.

[WillRoy]

Unless Selig decides to invent "Arena EX-Ultimate Strikeout 3000" baseball with full contact base running and only two-to-five players per side, I don't think changing the game would have any affect at all.

JP

Perhaps Selig could market baseball to the younger ages by putting emphasis on its free-market nature and the promising rewards of celebrity and wealth? Just a thought.

I'll just address this...

It is. It has been but....

Except as you note, it is not growing in the format(s) some of us old-schoolers prefer.

As you and JP seem to suggest, the growth in baseball parallels the rise of interest in the Football sorts of games.

What may bode well for the industry then, is that the keep your attention easy-in easy-out baseball fantasy games are not as rewarding financially or for one's pride. They are, at least in my opinion, some sort of fast-reward gambling machine or better yet, as my mom believes, "toys".

So, hopefully, as the fantasy baseball quickie flock ages, they'll be looking for a higher-end game. Maybe that's where y'all come in.

Most major competitions for Fantasy baseball that I know of aren't very close to the Football style of play. So I think there's a darn good chance that the customer base of a website aimed at more competitive formats could be successful.

[Todd Zola]

Perhaps Selig could market baseball to the younger ages by putting emphasis on its free-market nature and the promising rewards of celebrity and wealth? Just a thought.

Except that the youth of today is not exactly into riding buses between Topeka and Wichita, or Syracuse and Binghamton etc. when they are between the ages of 19 and 22.

I have always felt this is why our youth has chosen basketball and football and we are so reliant on other countries to stock rosters, which is fine.

Most major competitions for Fantasy baseball that I know of aren't very close to the Football style of play. So I think there's a darn good chance that the customer base of a website aimed at more competitive formats could be successful.

So do our pals at the NFBC

[da_big_kid_94]

This topic was touched on on the old boards. Some thought it a matter of potato/potatoe. I did not then and do not now. Some people think there is no difference between rotisserie baseball and fantasy baseball. Many also feel that we also just entered a new decade. I believe both those viewpoints to be incorrect. The second one is a fact - people just seem to accept what is put in front of them no matter how incorrect it is (like that INSIPID argument about whether to call it Twenty-Ten or Two Thousand Ten). . The first one is also true - roto was not only about the 8 or ten categories, but about attempting to simulate being the manager and general manager of one's own team. Who do I pay for? Who do I keep and what's the downside? Who do I sign to a contract? Who do I trade? Who do I release? When do I draft these categories?

Roto started losing popularity when people could simply show up for some sort of snake draft where everyone was available and there'd be somewhere from 8-12 teams involved. You could "stream" pitching from everywhere in the known professional universe as long as you got to him first. Then additional categories started to show up because the original format was "too hard" or "dull". Then various offshoots came up like H2H, closely paralleling fantasy football. There seem to be fewer and fewer people willing to put in the time for such endeavors. As Todd alluded to, the generation of immediate gratification. And some of them take the attitude that if they aren't in first place by a dominant margin come Memorial Day, they are walking.

There seems to be an undercurrent permeating through the younger players - if I don't like the results, what's the downside of walking? Why continue to manage a team that has no chance of winning and has no reward for me. There's always next year when I can just Etch-A-Sketch the whole thing. There's no incentive to stick with these types of leagues because most of them start fresh year after year. (Note: in the interest of full disclosure, I once played in a Yahoo league with many posters from MastersBall - and I walked away from it in mid season when I saw guys leaving pitching slots on their active roster open. Some people on these boards took umbrage with that - but it wasn't what I signed up for.) Am I "old"? You bet - with Perry gone, I may be the senior citizen here. Do I take this seriously? Yes - but it's not as life or death to me at it sometimes seems here for others. The game has evolved out of necessity - and that is not necessarily a bad thing - but the level of commitment seems to have dissipated with the younger player (generalization here) and that the patience level to play this out for six months is virtually nil.

I want to win ... but I also want to out think you, out auction you, out draft you and out manage you - all within stringent parameters. . It is a difficult exacta to achieve - but when you do? It is a terrific feeling.

[WillRoy]

I couldn't agree more with that analysis.

I didn't think of this before but...I find the only guys walking in leagues I'm in are the younger guys. They feel like they tried it (It being the "harder/more serious formats", or when I'm getting friends involved, fantasy baseball itself), didn't work or wasn't fun, over. Like some video game. Older folk especially, even when they're not psyched will stay because they committed.

[cwk1963]

I guess I'm one of those 'older folk' and I pretty much agree. But I am in leagues with 'younger folk' and they're active so I guess it's individual. I will not play public leagues any more though.

[viper]

we should consider a over 60 league

[ayebatter]

we should consider a over 60 league

You'll have to spot me a few months.

[JP Kastner]

I was in a league where the average age was much older than me. I grew frustrated with that league because there would be teams that would do dump trades in April! April! I would put my hair out. How can you quit the season in April?!?

To make matters worse, there were factions so even if I tried to buy some of this talent, there was a premium I had to pay.

The bottom line is that each league has its own unique features based upon the character of the individuals involved.

[cwk1963]

I was in a league where the average age was much older than me. I grew frustrated with that league because there would be teams that would do dump trades in April! April! I would put my hair out. How can you quit the season in April?!?

To make matters worse, there were factions so even if I tried to buy some of this talent, there was a premium I had to pay.

The bottom line is that each league has its own unique features based upon the character of the individuals involved.

Or the individual characters depending on your league .

[Trav The Ump]

(Note: in the interest of full disclosure, I once played in a Yahoo league with many posters from MastersBall - and I walked away from it in mid season when I saw guys leaving pitching slots on their active roster open. Some people on these boards took umbrage with that - but it wasn't what I signed up for.)
I want to win ... but I also want to out think you, out auction you, out draft you and out manage you - all within stringent parameters. . It is a difficult exacta to achieve - but when you do? It is a terrific feeling.

I was in this league for the full year and than walked due to complete inactivity on the part of other owners, lack of any potential trading partners and just a general distaste for it.

I guess I'm one of those 'older folk' and I pretty much agree. But I am in leagues with 'younger folk' and they're active so I guess it's individual. I will not play public leagues any more though.

I'm most definitely considered one of those "younger folk" as I'm 28 and have been in the league with my dad since I was 14 (He's George Steinbrenner and I'm Cashman). We've been a ten team local league now for about the last five years because we can't find anymore people willing to join in. To be fair its very close to a dynasty league with a monster constitution and probably at least a one year learning curve to be competitive. Yet being our 15th year of the league we still have five original owners from fifteen years ago.

I think the issue is baseball is a harder game to follow, harder to get stats from around the league's on tv and a much bigger commitment than NFL is. I love NFL fantasy as its more or less Thursday's and Sunday's and than you can ignore it. Baseball is every night. A lot longer season and you got to be committed to watch Toronto versus KC in late August during BBQ season. Oddly, the arrival of MLB H2H will be good for standard roto in the long run. NFL fantasy leagues continue to get more diverse and deep, as will the baseball fantasy players in time.

[njdupre]

It may well be the influence of fantasy football and the familiarity of the H2H style that draws in new, " younger " participants to baseball, but I think it's all good. Anything that attracts someone to our game is a good thing.

[deansdaddy]

I think part of the problem is also the rise of the video game age.

Many of the older (50 +) fantasy players grew up when baseball was the #1 sport in this country. They also likely collected baseball trading cards for the fun of it and played Strat-O-Matic. Oh yeah - they also played sandlot ball and/or stick ball. So baseball was much more ingrained in the culture. For players from my era (35-50) - we still had a connection to the game as the 70's had some great teams (Yanks/Reds/A's/Royals). We still played wiffle ball and collected baseball cards. I was addicted to the game Superstar Baseball (anyone else remember that one) and spent many winter days rolling the dice to see if Lou Gehrig could whack a home run off Juan Marichial. I played this game so much and kept asking my dad questions like "Who was Arky Vaughn?", that he finally bought me The Baseball Encyclopedia. I kept it by my bedside and used to read it before bedtime.

Anyone my age likely remembers when video games arrived. I remember that every kid in the neighborhood had an Atari or Intellivision or Sega system. We went to the 7-Eleven to spends HOURS playing PacMan, Defender or Donkey Kong. We played less baseball and instead of rolling the dice and keeping stats - we played video game baseball. The players decided to go on strike - football gave us Joe Montana. Basketball surged with Bird and Magic then later Jordan. And baseball in the 80's - well I think that strike in '81 really hurt the game. It took that '86 Mets/Red Sox series to kind of give baseball the charge it needed. But the damage was done - kids no longer only dreamed of being baseball stars.

I have a brother-in-law in his late 20's and I think he's a pretty good example of why it's harder to draw younger people into fantasy baseball. It's a thinking man's game. It also is meant to serve the goal of actually (well hopefully) making us actually enjoy WATCHING the real games more. My brother in law has an X-BOX and a Playstation 3. He is like many his age who love to play HALO or World of Warcraft or other online games globally on the internet. They plugin, put on the headphones and go. Yes they have the baseball simulators but they don't even begin to approach the popularity of football's Madden series.

I don't think things are likely to change - Fantasy baseball is really kind of like "Jazz Music" to me. You'll get to a certain age and suddenly realize that jazz is great and you finally have the time and inclination to sit down and really explore why it is the true American art form.

[kjduke]

If you study the demographics of consumer spending you'll find that spending changes over the lifecycle, no surprise, but I think that is the key you're looking for here.

As ultra-competitive sports fans get older and no longer can flash their skills on the playing field they need an outlet that ties in with their love of the game and acquired knowledge. At the same time, their disposable income is going up and their general activity level is going down. Overall consumer spending peaks around age 46-67 when most already have acquired a home, furnishings, cars, etc, but income keeps rising. That is the wheelhouse for serious fantasy baseball.

Check back with those young players who play cheap leagues and don't take FB too seriously 10 years from now.

[deansdaddy]

I agree KJ - and that's why I have no problem with what ESPN does with fantasy baseball over there.

They make it easy to play (10 team league) and it's FREE. So they are kind of trying to be the Strat-O-Matic for today's young players as the Gateway game.

[cwk1963]

If you study the demographics of consumer spending you'll find that spending changes over the lifecycle, no surprise, but I think that is the key you're looking for here.

As ultra-competitive sports fans get older and no longer can flash their skills on the playing field they need an outlet that ties in with their love of the game and acquired knowledge. At the same time, their disposable income is going up and their general activity level is going down. Overall consumer spending peaks around age 46-67 when most already have acquired a home, furnishings, cars, etc, but income keeps rising. That is the wheelhouse for serious fantasy baseball.

Check back with those young players who play cheap leagues and don't take FB too seriously 10 years from now.

Damn...my wallet missed that memo.

[lawr]

Well, Ryan pretty well described me.

Baseball cards. Pick up baseball every chance we had. Played Cadaco, then BLM, then APBA, then Strat (still do) and then moved onto roto/fantasy. Though in truth I went back to Strat. And, I also collected football cards and loved football, but it was not the same. Don't know why, but just not.

I think there are a couple of factors.

First, like it or not, the nature of anything is change. And, well, human beings are odd creatures with these things called egos, and, well, we like to leave an individual stamp on things. So, I think it is normal to expect the variations and tweaks over the years. For better or worse, but, like music (and, I love the Radiohead avatar and the Warren Zevon tag guys) and books and everything, we all have our preferences.

So, the best you can do is find people who are neurotic like you, and like to play like you (and, believe me, I got JP into that hair pulling league, as it was my first league, and well, it was very frustrating in so many ways. and, i won it more than a few times, as did Pasko).

But, also, change is tough, but, it is usually the way of the future, for better or worse. So, I try to roll with it.

I also think things go in cycles. Football is hot now, but, and I hope this happens in my lifetime, I would expect baseball to have a renaisance (did i spell that correctly).

Although, again, the game has changed. Even the Bob Eucker players are now millionaires. When I was a kid, I had the Cubs backup catcher (Cuno Berrigan) as my substitute math teacher in seventh grade cos well, players did not make that much and they had to supplement their incomes unless they were Willie Mays.

I personally try to divorce myself from the owners and the industrial complex of the game as much as I can, and remember the game--as in hitting and fielding and throwing and running--belong to all of us, not them. They might own the players at the highest level, but no one owns us playing pickup or stickball.

And, that said, you can watch a little league game amongst some six year olds and see a play just as jaw dropping as ozzie smith, and you can similarly see bonehead plays at any level.

To me, that is the beauty of the game, and nothing can ever take that away from any of us.