Things that I don't get

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WillRoy
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Re: Things that I don't get

#21 Post by WillRoy »

I don't get how gio was worth all that. And Mlb has dillydallied on the san jose thing for a loooooong time. You could have said the same thing last season fwiw.

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Re: Things that I don't get

#22 Post by SteveB »

da_big_kid_94 wrote:Gio Gonzalez - According to ESPN's Keith Law, the Athletics have agreed to trade Gio Gonzalez to the Nationals for prospects A.J. Cole, Brad Peacock, Derek Norris and Tommy Milone. Isn't this the team that is looking for some grass roots support in helping them get a new stadium? Why would they get any support now once everyone realizes Williamsport is still a viable alternative?
Kid i catch a lot of A's games every year in Stockton, Sacramento, and in Oakland. Its actually kind of cool to see young players, follow them through the system and see them actually get a real shot at the big club.

I think they are stocking up the minors gonna run it out there and see if something rises to the top. Most of the fans at the stadium like when the "young guys" start to gel.

I would imagine that after they finally get a ruling from Bud regarding San Jose is when you will see a "plan" of some sort. By cutting payroll, trying to get a young core of players together they might become players in FA market again as a new stadium deal looms.

As you know i am a huge Giants fan. One of the appeals to going to Oakland games is they have all kinds of gimmicks, sales, 1 dollar days , etc to get butts in the seats. I myself go to Giants games but if i take my whole family its to the A's.

Throwing money for guys you know arent gonna put them over the top and then raising ticket prices or dropping promos would be worse than a firesale IMHO

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Re: Things that I don't get

#23 Post by da_big_kid_94 »

WillRoy wrote:I don't get how gio was worth all that. And Mlb has dillydallied on the san jose thing for a loooooong time. You could have said the same thing last season fwiw.

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Absolutely right ...i can say it, you can say it, MLB can say it ...know who can't say it? The Oakland front office.
These are my views based on my own opinions and observations - your mileage may vary.
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Re: Things that I don't get

#24 Post by da_big_kid_94 »

SteveB wrote:
da_big_kid_94 wrote:Gio Gonzalez - According to ESPN's Keith Law, the Athletics have agreed to trade Gio Gonzalez to the Nationals for prospects A.J. Cole, Brad Peacock, Derek Norris and Tommy Milone. Isn't this the team that is looking for some grass roots support in helping them get a new stadium? Why would they get any support now once everyone realizes Williamsport is still a viable alternative?
Kid i catch a lot of A's games every year in Stockton, Sacramento, and in Oakland. Its actually kind of cool to see young players, follow them through the system and see them actually get a real shot at the big club.

I think they are stocking up the minors gonna run it out there and see if something rises to the top. Most of the fans at the stadium like when the "young guys" start to gel.

I would imagine that after they finally get a ruling from Bud regarding San Jose is when you will see a "plan" of some sort. By cutting payroll, trying to get a young core of players together they might become players in FA market again as a new stadium deal looms.

As you know i am a huge Giants fan. One of the appeals to going to Oakland games is they have all kinds of gimmicks, sales, 1 dollar days , etc to get butts in the seats. I myself go to Giants games but if i take my whole family its to the A's.

Throwing money for guys you know arent gonna put them over the top and then raising ticket prices or dropping promos would be worse than a firesale IMHO
Ok ...for the sake of argument, Steve... lets say I buy this. Care to speculate on the starting lineup and rotation for the 2012 Oakland A's? I like the idea of kids coming up and seeing what they can do - but right now it looks like there are two 25+ year olds who haven't done anything at the major league levels who just got handed jobs. What kids do they have ? Choice and Taylor? Are they even ready? Green doesn't figure because Pennington's just about the only vet left. And as for the rotation - let's say I may have been premature in my criticism of the DBacks signing all those geriatrics - it may be better suited towards the A's by the time spring training rolls around. What's next ...the return of Eric Chavez?
These are my views based on my own opinions and observations - your mileage may vary.
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Re: Things that I don't get

#25 Post by SteveB »

da_big_kid_94 wrote: Ok ...for the sake of argument, Steve... lets say I buy this. Care to speculate on the starting lineup and rotation for the 2012 Oakland A's? I like the idea of kids coming up and seeing what they can do - but right now it looks like there are two 25+ year olds who haven't done anything at the major league levels who just got handed jobs. What kids do they have ? Choice and Taylor? Are they even ready? Green doesn't figure because Pennington's just about the only vet left. And as for the rotation - let's say I may have been premature in my criticism of the DBacks signing all those geriatrics - it may be better suited towards the A's by the time spring training rolls around. What's next ...the return of Eric Chavez?
They have a lot of once highly regarded young talent they have picked up over the last years time. Not saying anything is earth shattering there but at least t here is some potential. I dont think they will get out of the cellar but with the direction the rest of the division was headed do you see them doing much better anyways?

C- Suzuki (certainly serviceable and another vet)
1b- Brandon Allen, Daric Barton, Chris Carter, and Kia Kaihue (nothing proven there but at least all four are highly touted prospects OR were highly touted prospects. Thinking Allen will win job but never know DH could come from here as well)
2B- Jemile Weeks (very young but is the real deal was a joy to watch last year)
3B-? (i guess Scott Sizemore but he looks to be more a IF back up to me at this point I know Sickels had nice things to say about Steve Parker last year at this time but who knows?)
ss-Cliff Pennington (still think Green is a year away)
OF- Collin Cowgill, Ryan Sweeney, and Micheal Taylor....(Cowgill and Sweeney are better suited off bench but with no depth probably are starting. Choice should be held off for a year IMHO or a late season call up)

P-Jarrod Parker
P-Brandon McCarthy
P- Dallas Braden
p-?
P-?

those are the three i am sure will be starting and then i have some ideas but there is a lot of question marks after this. The following year will have Anderson back from TJ so could have a decent rotation if a few things swing right for them.

closers---I am assuming Bailey gets traded so possibly another piece gets moved into the 3B mix, OF mix or something? Fuentes has experience closing and so does Devine but beyond that not sure. One of the higher ranked RP in their minors is Grey and he could get a call up but would probbaly be a long relief/ spot starter type.

The point is best case scenerio in the next two years they have say 4-5 spots filled will decent young cheap players THEN spending in FA could fill remaining holes. Worst case they trade a few players that get hot and just keep a continual "rebuilding" mode beyond 2012.

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Re: Things that I don't get

#26 Post by da_big_kid_94 »

But how do they expect to garner support for a new ballpark if they go into perpetual rebuilding mode. Even the Marlins were smart enough to realize you have to show something on your side of the deal.
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Re: Things that I don't get

#27 Post by Todd Zola »

FWIW, Grant Green was playing the outfield in the AFL. Scouts don't like his bat as a corner OF, but in the week Lawr and I saw him, he looked very good and pretty polished.
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Re: Things that I don't get

#28 Post by SteveB »

da_big_kid_94 wrote:But how do they expect to garner support for a new ballpark if they go into perpetual rebuilding mode. Even the Marlins were smart enough to realize you have to show something on your side of the deal.
its not about "about getting support" around here. Its about whether or not MLB allows them to build in San Jose. San Jose is supposedly "Giants territory" and the A's have placed a formal request to build there. Bud made some sort of commitee to look into it but hasnt ruled yet. If they are approved for San Jose I think they get one built easy. San jose the city is trying to get a larger city appeal and there is many that support the deal now including the all important business sponsors. I know the Sharks were a success for the city and they want to expand their name recognition and this seems like a natural fit.

If Bud rules against the San Jose idea likely the A's will just move to a city and location that is trying to attract a MLB team. I know there is a Sacramento contingent that has been trying to sell their city as an option. Portland has expressed interest as well. When Bud finally makes up his mind then i think the A's will have several viable options for them to look at. At which point the 2012 record will really not matter at all exept to the fans and players i guess.

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Re: Things that I don't get

#29 Post by SteveB »

Todd Zola wrote:FWIW, Grant Green was playing the outfield in the AFL. Scouts don't like his bat as a corner OF, but in the week Lawr and I saw him, he looked very good and pretty polished.

Is his defense considered a liability at SS? I also dont think he has enough of a stick to play out there. Maybe he breaks with the big club and they are looking for ways to get him his ABs...sort of like a Mark DeRosa type.

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Re: Things that I don't get

#30 Post by da_big_kid_94 »

SteveB wrote:
da_big_kid_94 wrote:But how do they expect to garner support for a new ballpark if they go into perpetual rebuilding mode. Even the Marlins were smart enough to realize you have to show something on your side of the deal.
its not about "about getting support" around here. Its about whether or not MLB allows them to build in San Jose. San Jose is supposedly "Giants territory" and the A's have placed a formal request to build there. Bud made some sort of commitee to look into it but hasnt ruled yet. If they are approved for San Jose I think they get one built easy. San Jose the city is trying to get a larger city appeal and there is many that support the deal now including the all important business sponsors. I know the Sharks were a success for the city and they want to expand their name recognition and this seems like a natural fit.

If Bud rules against the San Jose idea likely the A's will just move to a city and location that is trying to attract a MLB team. I know there is a Sacramento contingent that has been trying to sell their city as an option. Portland has expressed interest as well. When Bud finally makes up his mind then i think the A's will have several viable options for them to look at. At which point the 2012 record will really not matter at all exept to the fans and players i guess.
The 2012 record should be the least of their concerns. That's already shot. This sounds very much like the 2014 plan of the Royals but with not as much hyped talent. San Jose already has a minor league team. Who's going to want to go see a different one just because they use balls with Bud's name on them? San Jose is trying to attract a major league team - given (I will assume someone has to 1) pay off the Giants and 2) find a new home for the San Jose Giants). Who says the As will be that in 2015? As for the idea of moving? I can envision the collective yawn from any potential new site with this collection of ballplayers.
These are my views based on my own opinions and observations - your mileage may vary.
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Re: Things that I don't get

#31 Post by da_big_kid_94 »

SteveB wrote:
Todd Zola wrote:FWIW, Grant Green was playing the outfield in the AFL. Scouts don't like his bat as a corner OF, but in the week Lawr and I saw him, he looked very good and pretty polished.

Is his defense considered a liability at SS? I also dont think he has enough of a stick to play out there. Maybe he breaks with the big club and they are looking for ways to get him his ABs...sort of like a Mark DeRosa type.
God I hope not - that is the worst thing they could do to the kid - hands down. Your top prospect makes the club and you tell him he doesn't have a position after you've already shifted him once and that he may have to learn a few more - could they add anything on top of that where they could screw him even more?
These are my views based on my own opinions and observations - your mileage may vary.
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Re: Things that I don't get

#32 Post by Todd Zola »

SteveB wrote:
Todd Zola wrote:FWIW, Grant Green was playing the outfield in the AFL. Scouts don't like his bat as a corner OF, but in the week Lawr and I saw him, he looked very good and pretty polished.

Is his defense considered a liability at SS? I also dont think he has enough of a stick to play out there. Maybe he breaks with the big club and they are looking for ways to get him his ABs...sort of like a Mark DeRosa type.
Maybe when Perry checks in he can answer this better as I would not want you to rely on the recall of a then sleep-deprived a wannabe scout who doesn't remember things very well anyway and has a rule about writing things down when he is "on vacation".
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Re: Things that I don't get

#33 Post by CubFan »

da_big_kid_94 wrote:
SteveB wrote:
da_big_kid_94 wrote:But how do they expect to garner support for a new ballpark if they go into perpetual rebuilding mode. Even the Marlins were smart enough to realize you have to show something on your side of the deal.
its not about "about getting support" around here. Its about whether or not MLB allows them to build in San Jose. San Jose is supposedly "Giants territory" and the A's have placed a formal request to build there. Bud made some sort of commitee to look into it but hasnt ruled yet. If they are approved for San Jose I think they get one built easy. San Jose the city is trying to get a larger city appeal and there is many that support the deal now including the all important business sponsors. I know the Sharks were a success for the city and they want to expand their name recognition and this seems like a natural fit.

If Bud rules against the San Jose idea likely the A's will just move to a city and location that is trying to attract a MLB team. I know there is a Sacramento contingent that has been trying to sell their city as an option. Portland has expressed interest as well. When Bud finally makes up his mind then i think the A's will have several viable options for them to look at. At which point the 2012 record will really not matter at all exept to the fans and players i guess.
The 2012 record should be the least of their concerns. That's already shot. This sounds very much like the 2014 plan of the Royals but with not as much hyped talent. San Jose already has a minor league team. Who's going to want to go see a different one just because they use balls with Bud's name on them? San Jose is trying to attract a major league team - given (I will assume someone has to 1) pay off the Giants and 2) find a new home for the San Jose Giants). Who says the As will be that in 2015? As for the idea of moving? I can envision the collective yawn from any potential new site with this collection of ballplayers.
I agree 100% with da_big_kid except I'll offer the Royals have a much much better offense than what the As will likely have for a number of years. I've lived in KC since 1983 (but still a Cub's fan) and this city has waited a long time for the rebuilding phase to take root. The offense is mostly in place, just need some decent pitching. Renting Oswalt for a year may help if they want to compete this year. But as for the As, if they have to go looking for another city if San Jose fails, how does the team sell themselves to a prospective city. How do they sell tickets to watch a AAA/AAAA team for the next couple of years......especially in this economy? People will support a winner but I really doubt they'll shell out entertainment $$ to watch an inferior product....there are plenty of little league and high school teams you can watch for free.
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Re: Things that I don't get

#34 Post by TheRunner77 »

Does Dave Sappelt as a Cub become fantasy-relevant as an end-game SB source? How much might he play? Plus, don't they already have a similar player in Campana?

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Re: Things that I don't get

#35 Post by Todd Zola »

TheRunner77 wrote:Does Dave Sappelt as a Cub become fantasy-relevant as an end-game SB source? How much might he play? Plus, don't they already have a similar player in Campana?
Sappelt is much more Tyler Colvin that Tony Campana (I hate these comps almost as much as target drafting) in that he is a power-speed guy. Campana has no pop whatsoever. Sappelt is a teens-teens guy with enough playing time, but I don't think he will get it right away. But, Theo learned that you need some quality depth, even in the outfield (read - Darnell McDonald, Daniel Nava).
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Re: Things that I don't get

#36 Post by da_big_kid_94 »

I'm thinking with the Reed Johnson signing, Sappelt may start the year in Triple A -- unless they find someone to take Soriano off their hands.
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Re: Things that I don't get

#37 Post by Captain Hook »

SteveB wrote:
Todd Zola wrote:FWIW, Grant Green was playing the outfield in the AFL. Scouts don't like his bat as a corner OF, but in the week Lawr and I saw him, he looked very good and pretty polished.

Is his defense considered a liability at SS? I also dont think he has enough of a stick to play out there. Maybe he breaks with the big club and they are looking for ways to get him his ABs...sort of like a Mark DeRosa type.
I don't think Green's defense at SS is bad. I think the team (at least for now) just likes Pennington more

I am not among the group that thinks Grant Green as a corner outfielder is a plus. If he is not going to play shortstop he is not very interesting to me for fantasy purposes.

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Re: Things that I don't get

#38 Post by SteveB »

da_big_kid_94 wrote:
SteveB wrote:
Todd Zola wrote:FWIW, Grant Green was playing the outfield in the AFL. Scouts don't like his bat as a corner OF, but in the week Lawr and I saw him, he looked very good and pretty polished.

Is his defense considered a liability at SS? I also dont think he has enough of a stick to play out there. Maybe he breaks with the big club and they are looking for ways to get him his ABs...sort of like a Mark DeRosa type.
God I hope not - that is the worst thing they could do to the kid - hands down. Your top prospect makes the club and you tell him he doesn't have a position after you've already shifted him once and that he may have to learn a few more - could they add anything on top of that where they could screw him even more?

I agree that they shouldnt do that was just trying to figure out a reason why they would be putting him in the OF. Although I do think it would be even worse to have him beak camp and get very little ABs.

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Re: Things that I don't get

#39 Post by da_big_kid_94 »

OK ...now I'm just about on the verge of giving up. I know that every Sunday I find I don't know as much about football as I think I know, but this just floors me .... courtesy of Baseball Nation and Bob Nightengale of USA Today.

http://mlb.sbnation.com/2011/12/26/2661 ... xid=si_mlb

According to this article, the A's will be granted permission to move to San Jose and it will be announced in February 2012. I can only spin this in one of two ways;
  • Either Beane knew this was coming and has, in essence, told the fans and sponsors of the A's to bugger off until the move to the new digs is completed as to being competitive, or
  • He had no idea that this story was going to break less than a week after trading Gio or that permission was being granted, in which case, his contact system must really suck and maybe they might just want to start recalling prints of Moneyball for some re-editing.
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Re: Things that I don't get

#40 Post by da_big_kid_94 »

Well, that pretty much completes the torch job - kinda makes you wonder if Beane did it to collect the insurance.

Let's see - 1B - Brandon Allen/Daric Barton. 2B Jemile Weeks. SS Cliff Pennington. 3B - Quien Sabe, RF - Josh Reddick, LF Chris Carter, CF - God only knows,. C Suzuki (if he lasts)/Powell, DH - I'm sure they'll find some 37 year vet on a one year deal (can you say Vlad or Mags?). Wow - Petty Criminals Row right there.

Starting Pitchers - Brandon Mc Carthy and maybe Dallas Braden if he heals fast enough.
Closer - Balfour/Fuentes/De Los Santos/Devine/Manny/Moe/Jack

This "team" will compete in a division that includes the worst offensive team in baseball three years running and will be bolstered next year by the addition of the juggernaut known as the Houston Astros. Hey, San Jose! At least Jessie James had the decency to use a gun!

Slim pickings in that division for the AL only leagues.
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Re: Things that I don't get

#41 Post by WillRoy »

That's funny man. And I can't disagree for the time being... :(
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Re: Things that I don't get

#42 Post by Todd Zola »

FWIW, you can add Scott Sizemore at 3B and Jermaine Mitchell and Collin Cowgill to the OF with Kila Ka'aihue at DH. Not saying they are any good, just saying they are the guys is all. Also, Powell was released and Anthony Racker actually shows some promise as the backup.

Heh, that pretty much sums it up - your backup catcher shows the most promise.
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Re: Things that I don't get

#43 Post by Captain Hook »

pretty likely that Quien Sabe will be Scott Sizemore

Also I think Jarrod Parker will be in the opening day rotation for Oakland

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Re: Things that I don't get

#44 Post by da_big_kid_94 »

Captain Hook wrote:pretty likely that Quien Sabe will be Scott Sizemore

Also I think Jarrod Parker will be in the opening day rotation for Oakland
I think he'll be there too ...but for the wrong reason . Case where he needs to make the rotation rather than he deserves to be. It'd be nice if he could make the rotation the old fashioned way out of spring training - but right now he looks like he's penciled into the 3rd spot on a team where offense looks to be sparse. And the sad part is, if he has a bad spring? He'll still probably get thrown to the wolves. He has a lot of talent - but I can't see going more that 5 units in auction league for him right now given his circumstances.
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Re: Things that I don't get

#45 Post by CubFan »

I've now got to make decisions on whether or not to keep a couple of Oakland guys....McCarthy at $3 and Reddick at $2. had held out hope Reddick would be Boston's opening day RFer. Playing half his games in Oakland is not gonna help.

Wish MLB would get this over with and move them to San Jose now. I can't help but think that playing in front of 5,000 people when you're playing at home can energize you.

And Epstein is doing his bit to ensure the Cubs follow a similar path (getting younger and hope to compete by 2014) by not going after any high priced FAs. I think Garza will be the next big name traded. Hope they get something good in return and not a lump of coal.
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C - Garver $4
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OF - J Duran $11, Ward $7
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SP - Hunter Brown $6, Ryan $22
RP - Fairbanks $6, Duran $16
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Re: Things that I don't get

#46 Post by Captain Hook »

CubFan wrote:I've now got to make decisions on whether or not to keep a couple of Oakland guys....McCarthy at $3 and Reddick at $2. had held out hope Reddick would be Boston's opening day RFer. Playing half his games in Oakland is not gonna help.

Wish MLB would get this over with and move them to San Jose now. I can't help but think that playing in front of 5,000 people when you're playing at home can energize you.

And Epstein is doing his bit to ensure the Cubs follow a similar path (getting younger and hope to compete by 2014) by not going after any high priced FAs. I think Garza will be the next big name traded. Hope they get something good in return and not a lump of coal.
Oakland will be moving to San Jose - likely in 2014

I would keep both McCarthy and Reddick at those favorable prices - you will earn money from both

NorCalAtlFan
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Re: Things that I don't get

#47 Post by NorCalAtlFan »

and San Jose will welcome them with open arms:)
i'm not an A's fan, but it will be nice for one of the largest cities in the US to finally get a professional team! (technically the Sharks count, but I mean from the big 2 sports)

da_big_kid_94
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Re: Things that I don't get

#48 Post by da_big_kid_94 »

Ok ...that's it ...I admit it! Beane is either smarter that I am or dumber than I am. $36 mil for Cespedes over 4 years?!?!?!?!? So much for Seth Smith. Looks like both Brandon Allen's and Chris Carter's tickets out have been punched as well.
These are my views based on my own opinions and observations - your mileage may vary.
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TheRunner77

Re: Things that I don't get

#49 Post by TheRunner77 »

Outside of Crisp playing full time and Smith in a platoon role, can anyone throw a dart at how the OF PT will be shared? They're also talking about signing Ordonez to a minor league deal.

Is this Beane's new revolution -- stock before the season starts and ship anywhere prior to the trading deadline?

Build "closerworthiness" and sell role to highest bidder?

You can never have enough OFs. Unless, you can add another closer candidate first.

Create favorable SP profiles thanks to a pitcher-friendly ballpark and sell them for more talented but close to major league ready SPs?

Something is going in OAK. It seems like the playbook came out of a Hoarders show on A&E.

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Re: Things that I don't get

#50 Post by da_big_kid_94 »

I can't even see Smith in a platoon role ...Reddick hits from the left side as well. I'm thinking Gomes makes more sense in a platoon with Reddick once Reddick is proven healthy. But then, I have to consider it's the mind of Billy Beane and his new 8 year extention we're dealing with. If they sign Mags, he's the DH.... I think.
These are my views based on my own opinions and observations - your mileage may vary.
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Re: Things that I don't get

#51 Post by da_big_kid_94 »

Few updates;
  • Looks like Quien Sabe is out for the year so third base will now be covered by Quien Sabe Dos.
  • Seems like we're going to hold off on that San Jose thing for a while. I read this and I can't help but think Bill Veeck, St. Louis and Baltimore. Someone in the MLB hierarchy let Beane crawl all the way out on a limb and then sawed it off;
...and the same fate beckons for Beane and Oakland A’s owners Lew Wolff and John Fisher in their determined effort to move to a new stadium in Hi-Tech haven. The latter prospect, in which, for a variety of reasons, MLB is going to uphold the San Francisco Giants’ territorial rights in San Jose, will be especially disheartening for Beane. The man behind “Moneyballl” essentially blew up his pitching staff, trading his 1-2 starters, Gio Gonzalez and Trevor Cahill, to the Washington Nationals and Arizona Diamondbacks, respectively, and shipped closer Andrew Bailey to the Red Sox — for a bushelful of prospects and young players. All the deals were designed to have a contending-ready team in three years when, presumably, the A’s would be liberated from the gloomy, outmoded Oakland-Alameda County Coliseum and on their way to San Jose.
Bill Madden article NY Daily News 3/4/12; http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseb ... z1oAKkACdB

Just one more thing I don 't get ... wonder who Beane and the A's ownership pissed off for this to happen?
These are my views based on my own opinions and observations - your mileage may vary.
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SteveB
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Re: Things that I don't get

#52 Post by SteveB »

da_big_kid_94 wrote:
Just one more thing I don 't get ... wonder who Beane and the A's ownership pissed off for this to happen?

Honestly Kid I dont see how MLB can give the territory to the A's. I dont think its a matter of pissing anyone off its a matter of contractual rights. The Giants fan support is very strong in southbay both from a fans perspective AND from a company sponsership perspective. The Giants were purchased, kept in SF, built a new stadium, etc all based on having territorial rights to this very lucrative area. I just dont see how this can be forced on the Giants without causing a huge rift and likely long court battle. Kind of thing is not the type of publicity and internal fighting that MLB needs.

So basically thats why i think it cant be "given" The only way i see this every happening is if the A's ownership works out something with the Giants ownership and then brings it forth together. I just dont think that will happen.

As a fan i think two strong teams in the bay area would be a great thing and think in reality probably would not impact the Giants too much. However thats just my opinion and i dont have any money interests in this so its easy for me think so.

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Re: Things that I don't get

#53 Post by da_big_kid_94 »

SteveB wrote:
da_big_kid_94 wrote:
Just one more thing I don 't get ... wonder who Beane and the A's ownership pissed off for this to happen?

Honestly Kid I dont see how MLB can give the territory to the A's. I dont think its a matter of pissing anyone off its a matter of contractual rights. The Giants fan support is very strong in southbay both from a fans perspective AND from a company sponsership perspective. The Giants were purchased, kept in SF, built a new stadium, etc all based on having territorial rights to this very lucrative area. I just dont see how this can be forced on the Giants without causing a huge rift and likely long court battle. Kind of thing is not the type of publicity and internal fighting that MLB needs.

So basically thats why i think it cant be "given" The only way i see this every happening is if the A's ownership works out something with the Giants ownership and then brings it forth together. I just dont think that will happen.

As a fan i think two strong teams in the bay area would be a great thing and think in reality probably would not impact the Giants too much. However thats just my opinion and i dont have any money interests in this so its easy for me think so.
I agree with you , Steve ...but then who told the A's the move would be approved by February 2012? Does Beane make ANY of these moves if he doesn't have at least SOME assurance that the move to San Jose is gonna happen? Remember - Nightengale was told by his own MLB sources back on Christmas Eve that the move would be approved in February of 2012. Someone use him too? Pure spec here - but I think Beane assumed the territorial issue was being handled by MLB and that the move wouldn't happen unless MLB knew that issue had been put to bed.

One other point - Madden says the A's wouldn't get the votes ... now isn't THAT curious? Again - Veeck, St. Louis and Baltimore redux. For those of you unfamiliar, in the mid 50's Bill Veeck wanted to move his St. Louis Browns to Baltimore when Gussie Busch and Budweiser bought the Cardinals. Veeck was told that Baltimore was OK and MLB even had a committee recommend Baltimore as a preferred site. After the 1953 season closed, Veeck's move was voted down because Baltimore "wasn't ready". In 1954, just about broke, Veeck was again voted down at the post season owner's meeting. Since Veeck was no favorite amongst his peers, he was smelling a rat ...especially when Dan Topping (then NY Yankee co-owner) allegedly came up to Veeck and told him that the AL would bankrupt him, seize his franchise and then determine where it should go.

Oddly familiar.
These are my views based on my own opinions and observations - your mileage may vary.
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SteveB
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Re: Things that I don't get

#54 Post by SteveB »

just read the Giants response to the A's. This is exactly what i was saying....
here is the Giants statement in its entirety.....


“The Commissioner has asked us to refrain from discussing the territorial rights issue publicly. Out of respect for his request, we will limit our response to setting the record straight on the history of territorial rights.

The Giants territorial rights were not granted “subject to” moving to Santa Clara County. Indeed, the A’s fail to mention that MLB’s 1990 territorial rights designation has been explicitly re-affirmed by Major League Baseball on four separate occasions. Most significantly in 1994, Major League Baseball conducted a comprehensive review and re-definition of each club’s territories. These designations explicitly provide that the Giants territory include Santa Clara, San Francisco, San Mateo, Monterey, Santa Cruz and Marin Counties and the A’s territory included Alameda and Contra Costa Counties.

The MLB owners unanimously approved those designated territories and memorialized them in the MLB Constitution. Since then, the MLB Constitution has been re-affirmed by the MLB owners – including by the A’s – on three different occasions (2000, 2005 and 2008), long after the Giants won approval to build AT&T Park. Mr. Wolff and Mr. Fisher agreed to these territorial designations and were fully aware of our territorial rights when they purchased the A’s for just $172 million in 2005.

The population of Santa Clara County alone represents 43% of our territory. Upon purchasing the team 20 years ago, our plan to revive the franchise relied heavily on targeting and solidifying our fan base in the largest and fastest growing county within our territory. Based on these Constitutionally-recognized territorial rights, the Giants invested hundreds of millions of dollars to save and stabilize the team for the Bay Area, built AT&T Park privately and has operated the franchise so that it can compete at the highest levels.”

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Re: Things that I don't get

#55 Post by da_big_kid_94 »

I understand, Steve .. and I understand this has to be everyone's public stance ... but query this (ironically in the words of Robert ironside) ... given these terms, which are on the record ...why would the A's even THINK they had a shot of moving to San Jose .... unless, of course ...someone in the MLB front offices sent word to them that some sort of accommodation had been reached with the Giants?
These are my views based on my own opinions and observations - your mileage may vary.
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AllstonRockCity

Re: Things that I don't get

#56 Post by AllstonRockCity »

OK, I may be completely off base here and am prepared to take my lumps on this, but I have an entirely different view of this whole situation.

Maybe Beane knew that the A's weren't going to get that new park and that fact coupled with what happened in SoCal are what lead to him blowing things up.

First let's start with the park. I know its an accepted 'truth' that Beane wanted to turn over the roster so he had a cheap young contender in his shiny new park. But why? Why do you need a cheap, young, contending team in a new park?? Its a new park. People are going to come to see the new park regardless of the product on the field, because its new. Also this new park should equal an influx of $$ for ownership, so does the payroll really need to be trimmed if the budget should theoretically be going up?

Secondly, let's consider the timeline. On 12/8/11 division rival LAA signs Pujols and Wilson to long, backloaded deals. On 12/9 Cahill is shipped to AZ and on 12/22 Gio goes to Washington. The winter meetings had just ended so its not too far a reach to think that Beane knew exactly what teams wanted which A's and what they were willing to give up. I bring this up cuz I think being fresh off those meetings was really able to expedite these trades. So, Beane sees that LA has just purchased (in theory) 1st or 2nd in the division for the next few years. TEX also is looking to be a perennial power. So, perhaps the real reason he blew things up was to bide his time, not for a new ballpark, but for when Texas' run eventually ends and LA is being hamstrung by their big FA signings rather than reaping their benefits.

So, while it makes for a neat, tidy, and easily digested story, I don't really buy that he blew things up for a new park and then, "whoops, sorry Billy, no new park". I think he looked at his own division, saw it was an exercise in futility and set his sights for 2015 when TEX and LA will be on the downslide and he'll have a cheap talented club ready to win some division titles like he had around 2000.

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Re: Things that I don't get

#57 Post by da_big_kid_94 »

AllstonRockCity wrote:OK, I may be completely off base here and am prepared to take my lumps on this, but I have an entirely different view of this whole situation.

Maybe Beane knew that the A's weren't going to get that new park and that fact coupled with what happened in SoCal are what lead to him blowing things up.

First let's start with the park. I know its an accepted 'truth' that Beane wanted to turn over the roster so he had a cheap young contender in his shiny new park. But why? Why do you need a cheap, young, contending team in a new park?? Its a new park. People are going to come to see the new park regardless of the product on the field, because its new. Also this new park should equal an influx of $$ for ownership, so does the payroll really need to be trimmed if the budget should theoretically be going up?

Secondly, let's consider the timeline. On 12/8/11 division rival LAA signs Pujols and Wilson to long, backloaded deals. On 12/9 Cahill is shipped to AZ and on 12/22 Gio goes to Washington. The winter meetings had just ended so its not too far a reach to think that Beane knew exactly what teams wanted which A's and what they were willing to give up. I bring this up cuz I think being fresh off those meetings was really able to expedite these trades. So, Beane sees that LA has just purchased (in theory) 1st or 2nd in the division for the next few years. TEX also is looking to be a perennial power. So, perhaps the real reason he blew things up was to bide his time, not for a new ballpark, but for when Texas' run eventually ends and LA is being hamstrung by their big FA signings rather than reaping their benefits.

So, while it makes for a neat, tidy, and easily digested story, I don't really buy that he blew things up for a new park and then, "whoops, sorry Billy, no new park". I think he looked at his own division, saw it was an exercise in futility and set his sights for 2015 when TEX and LA will be on the downslide and he'll have a cheap talented club ready to win some division titles like he had around 2000.
This is a valid viewpoint ....quite frankly, I don't know why Beane made the deals he did - it is possible it is exactly as you say. I have my doubts for the following reasons;
  • Who trades pitching these days unless you get something REALLY important to you back - like Montero in Seattle?
  • Who gives up a just turned 24 year old and 27 year old pitching duo who have each logged in over 200 innings the past season for what they got in return? Building for the future - hell, with those two guys they could be building for this year and beyond and can spend their 36 mil more productively. They got two bats who aren't major league ready yet in both of those deals - so why are the arms they got better than the ones they traded away?
  • You can't attract prime or near prime hitters to that ballpark now - what makes Beane so sure he can in 2014 or 15?
  • Absent that, you give 36 mil to a 26 year old unproven OF just so you can piss of the one re-signed free agent you got?
  • Next year, you get that juggernaut known as the Houston Astros to play in your division. Granted that means the Angels and Rangers get to beat up on them - but you might have a chance to do that as well and not have to wait until 2014 or 15 - while possibly giving THEM time to improve as well.
  • With the Cahill deal coming one day after those two signings, you KNOW that deal was just about closed when the Angels signed those two - so that isn't a factor here - they were trading Cahill no mater what Moreno did.
  • The A's owners seemed positively shocked that the deal may not go through - with all the evidence SteveB and others have provided, why would that news shock any reasonable person?
I think the real question is to what purpose did Beane seemingly throw the 2012 season away ....or was he just following orders?
These are my views based on my own opinions and observations - your mileage may vary.
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Captain Hook

Re: Things that I don't get

#58 Post by Captain Hook »

[quote="da_big_kid_94]Who trades pitching these days unless you get something REALLY important to you back - like Montero in Seattle?[/quote]

I think it is very possible that in a few years people will say that Oakland got back better pitchers and more of them than he dealt away with Cahil and Gonzalez

AllstonRockCity

Re: Things that I don't get

#59 Post by AllstonRockCity »

Captain Hook wrote:[
Not only that but guys who are under club control for twice as long as the guys you gave up.
So its not unreasonable to think that parker, milone and peacock are all better and cheaper than cahill and gio come 2015

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Re: Things that I don't get

#60 Post by da_big_kid_94 »

AllstonRockCity wrote:
Captain Hook wrote:[
Not only that but guys who are under club control for twice as long as the guys you gave up.
So its not unreasonable to think that parker, milone and peacock are all better and cheaper than cahill and gio come 2015
Again, that's all very well and good ... and Perry, I say the same to you - what did the A's do to the two seasons coming up? 2015 is nice - but it's three years away! What about the mean time? If you hurt Peacock and Parker by force feeding them into this year's rotation, what good did you do them? And you pretty much knew what you had in Cahill and Gonzalez - so these are cases of trading a bird in the hand for two in the bush? Are the A's to the point where they are down to speculating about keeping control of untested players?
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SteveB
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Re: Things that I don't get

#61 Post by SteveB »

yeah i am kind of in the "Beane got the better half" of these trades camp. I think they could be better than what they gave up starting NEXT year. Plus when Anderson comes back that staff could be very solid. Finally they refilled the farm with a lot of chips so i have a feeling that Beane may continue to tweak over the next year and a half as pieces start to fall into place.

To me its likely they were trying to get the public support and make the Giants the villians. A "its not our fault" to the fans. They were hoping maybe to influence the desicion coming down from MLB with public support. Maybe Beane did throw in the towel for 2012 and this was his way of selling it to the fans. Its possible that a little of Beane's ego came into play as he was trying to be the "genius" during the whole Oscar coverage on Moneyball. Seriously if the As contended NEXT year how would all this trading look then? Probably the truth is a little of everything.

The most amazing thing to me, and i have said it before, is that we are even talking about the As after what the other teams in the division have done.
Last edited by SteveB on March 9th, 2012, 7:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Captain Hook

Re: Things that I don't get

#62 Post by Captain Hook »

No matter what they did they weren't beating the Angels or Rangers this year - so why not load up for better days ahead - with or without the new ballpark

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Re: Things that I don't get

#63 Post by da_big_kid_94 »

So, in other words, become the Pittsburgh Pirates West and to hell with the paying customers and advertisers.
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AllstonRockCity

Re: Things that I don't get

#64 Post by AllstonRockCity »

da_big_kid_94 wrote:So, in other words, become the Pittsburgh Pirates West and to hell with the paying customers and advertisers.
Kid, I know you play in keeper leagues. I'm sure you've had seasons where it was June and you knew it was time to play for next year. Then, maybe, due to some back luck and some injuries, you were forced to play for next year 2 years in a row. I tend to think this is exactly what happened in OAK.

Now, in the roto game, we can rebuild over the course of 3-6 months and make huge changes, but this is obviously not so in MLB. You can't really 'play for next year', it is more like playing for 2 or usually 3 years from now. So if the 1st rebuild fails, you need to do a 2nd rebuild just like in the preceding example.

They won the west in 06. Then started to rebuild, but that rebuild didn't go as planned and in the meantime TEX (who'd been a perennial cellar dweller in years past) got good and LAA remained strong, so it was time to rebuild again (the rebuild that's currently going on).

I understand what you are saying and while I am not an A's fan, I would much rather have a GM who looks at things objectively and bides his time waiting to strike rather than a GM that tries and fails to win it all every year leaving my team with a barren farm system which will inevitably lead to a decade long drought.

Of course, in this particular example, it probably will be a decade long drought in terms of ALWest titles, but its not due to shortsightedness or poor decision making.

Also with a payroll as low as theirs they can't afford to screw up in the rebuilding process as they cannot afford to 'pay away' their mistakes.

I hardly see what's going on in OAK as a team throwing in the towel and saying 'eff you' to the fans so much as I see a good GM accepting the reality of the division in which his team resides and choosing to address this reality rather than take the easy road just to appease the fan base.

Lots of times in life the easy choice is not the right one.

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Re: Things that I don't get

#65 Post by da_big_kid_94 »

AllstonRockCity wrote:
da_big_kid_94 wrote:So, in other words, become the Pittsburgh Pirates West and to hell with the paying customers and advertisers.
Kid, I know you play in keeper leagues. I'm sure you've had seasons where it was June and you knew it was time to play for next year. Then, maybe, due to some back luck and some injuries, you were forced to play for next year 2 years in a row. I tend to think this is exactly what happened in OAK.

Now, in the roto game, we can rebuild over the course of 3-6 months and make huge changes, but this is obviously not so in MLB. You can't really 'play for next year', it is more like playing for 2 or usually 3 years from now. So if the 1st rebuild fails, you need to do a 2nd rebuild just like in the preceding example.

They won the west in 06. Then started to rebuild, but that rebuild didn't go as planned and in the meantime TEX (who'd been a perennial cellar dweller in years past) got good and LAA remained strong, so it was time to rebuild again (the rebuild that's currently going on).

I understand what you are saying and while I am not an A's fan, I would much rather have a GM who looks at things objectively and bides his time waiting to strike rather than a GM that tries and fails to win it all every year leaving my team with a barren farm system which will inevitably lead to a decade long drought.

Of course, in this particular example, it probably will be a decade long drought in terms of ALWest titles, but its not due to shortsightedness or poor decision making.

Also with a payroll as low as theirs they can't afford to screw up in the rebuilding process as they cannot afford to 'pay away' their mistakes.

I hardly see what's going on in OAK as a team throwing in the towel and saying 'eff you' to the fans so much as I see a good GM accepting the reality of the division in which his team resides and choosing to address this reality rather than take the easy road just to appease the fan base.

Lots of times in life the easy choice is not the right one.
That's true ...but there's a big difference between April and June/July. I never went into my auction looking to throw my team for the next three years. And if I made trades - they were to strengthen NEXT year's team - not the one two or three years from now.

If they went into rebuilding mode? Who trades for things they already had instead of things they still need? They're speculating that three kids come up big for them and aren't after thoughts by 2014-15. And their offense still sucks and doesn't look to get a helluva lot better on the horizon. Who's their business model - the Royals of the last decade? I see a team whose ownership took someone in MLB's hierarchy at face value and now are stuck with decisions they made based on a move they couldn't support.
These are my views based on my own opinions and observations - your mileage may vary.
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AllstonRockCity

Re: Things that I don't get

#66 Post by AllstonRockCity »

da_big_kid_94 wrote:
AllstonRockCity wrote: Now, in the roto game, we can rebuild over the course of 3-6 months and make huge changes, but this is obviously not so in MLB. You can't really 'play for next year', it is more like playing for 2 or usually 3 years from now. So if the 1st rebuild fails, you need to do a 2nd rebuild just like in the preceding example.

They won the west in 06. Then started to rebuild, but that rebuild didn't go as planned and in the meantime TEX (who'd been a perennial cellar dweller in years past) got good and LAA remained strong, so it was time to rebuild again (the rebuild that's currently going on).
That's true ...but there's a big difference between April and June/July. I never went into my auction looking to throw my team for the next three years. And if I made trades - they were to strengthen NEXT year's team - not the one two or three years from now.

If they went into rebuilding mode? Who trades for things they already had instead of things they still need? They're speculating that three kids come up big for them and aren't after thoughts by 2014-15. And their offense still sucks and doesn't look to get a helluva lot better on the horizon. Who's their business model - the Royals of the last decade? I see a team whose ownership took someone in MLB's hierarchy at face value and now are stuck with decisions they made based on a move they couldn't support.

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Re: Things that I don't get

#67 Post by da_big_kid_94 »

And I again state why is this considered a rebuild when you take somewhat proven commodities at a given position and trade them for prospects at the same position? And, as is the case with the Pirates, the A's are getting revenue sharing money from MLB - the object of which is ostensibly to improve their team. How does dumping players who can help them now but who will be arbitration eligible sooner and replacing them with players who they can "contractually control" for many years beyond serve that purpose? Because they play in the same division as the big bad Rangers, they get to plead they aren't competitive and the people in the Bay Area will just have to wait? Why do they get a pass on making an effort before the season even starts?

And meanwhile, the A's fans and sponsors get played for suckers.
These are my views based on my own opinions and observations - your mileage may vary.
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AllstonRockCity

Re: Things that I don't get

#68 Post by AllstonRockCity »

well, i kinda think you answered your own question. those arbitration years might be small change to many teams, but when your payroll is a low as OAK's, every dollar counts.

I am not saying any of this is right or wrong and I'm glad I'm not an A's fan. My original point was that I think Billy blowing it up had more to do with the West than the new stadium. My point was more about why he blew it up rather than whether or not it was the right thing to do.

I think you and I each love a good conspiracy we just disagree what the conspiracy is and who the puppet masters are.

:)

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Re: Things that I don't get

#69 Post by da_big_kid_94 »

I like intelligent conversation as well. Todd and I have had this argument as well in the past. First - you don't throw $36 mil over 4 years to one unproven guy on a low payroll. Second, Oakland is taking this revenue sharing money (part of which is supposed to be used to mitigate theses type of expenses) and dumping the players that part of that revenue sharing income is supposed to offset. They get the money up front now to offset a cost that is never going to be incurred.

The Pirates did the same thing for years - they dumped guys who were coming up in arbitration and pocketed the money MLB gave them to ostensibly defray THOSE costs so they could pay off bad contracts like they gave to Benjamin and Mears. Then they'd continue to scream poverty and that they weren't competitive, all the while continuing to accept more revenue sharing money from MLB. Really no different than what the A's have done ...they're dressing up their returns in shiny wrappers and selling their potential as fact. Meanwhile, they score on the revenue share and get a pass on being a competitive ball club simply by making a few trades.
These are my views based on my own opinions and observations - your mileage may vary.
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Re: Things that I don't get

#70 Post by da_big_kid_94 »

And there is a reason why there are things I don't get. Mea culpa to Billy Beane and the entire Oakland A's organization. Whether it came out the way you had planned or not, it was productive and entertaining and provided results far beyond anything I obviously envisioned. So, in the immortal words of Arthur Fonzarelli;" I was wrrrr.... I was wrrrrrooooo ......I was wr..... I was whuuurrrnnn" - well, you get the drift.
These are my views based on my own opinions and observations - your mileage may vary.
"KNOW THY LEAGUE" - the Forum Funklord - 4/13/2009
Fantasy is managing stats ... roto is managing teams

Captain Hook

Re: Things that I don't get

#71 Post by Captain Hook »

Good Posting kid and Cespedes certainly exceeded my expectations.

I posted after Lawr's Mastersblog that Bob Melvin did an amazing job this year in Oakland - as did Buck Showalter in Baltimore. The writers should vote them co-managers of the year in the AL because both earned it and neither should go without the award.

OTOH I don't see any competition that would even get votes against Billy Beane as AL Exec of the Year

da_big_kid_94
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Re: Things that I don't get

#72 Post by da_big_kid_94 »

And to be fair ... I DO get Loria ...I just wonder why they allow him to stick around.
These are my views based on my own opinions and observations - your mileage may vary.
"KNOW THY LEAGUE" - the Forum Funklord - 4/13/2009
Fantasy is managing stats ... roto is managing teams

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Todd Zola
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Re: Things that I don't get

#73 Post by Todd Zola »

Individually, every one of his moves can be justified/rationalized -- but collectively, all things considered, I feel for whatever Miami fans still remain.

Though, I am sort of in the same boat as I am with Boston -- OK, I get it. I'll reserve judgment until I see what's next.
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SteveB
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Re: Things that I don't get

#74 Post by SteveB »

That was fun to reread the whole post and see how things came out....

da_big_kid_94
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Re: Things that I don't get

#75 Post by da_big_kid_94 »

SteveB wrote:That was fun to reread the whole post and see how things came out....
And it seems it isn't done yet, Steve;
Have to wonder what it’s going to take for the Oakland A’s owners to realize there’s no way they are ever going to get to San Jose, at least as long as Bud Selig is commissioner.

It was reported by the L.A. Times last week that Selig, who has had a panel studying the A’s stadium situation since March 30, 2009, sent the A’s a list of “tentative guidelines” they had to follow before he could put a move to San Jose before the other 29 clubs. But even then, the report said, he couldn’t guarantee it would be approved.
Bill Madden, NY Daily News, 2/24/13.

Also in this article, Madden takes Luccino to the woodshed about his reactions to Francona's book and to Shaughnessey.

Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseb ... z2LonFW6Hg
These are my views based on my own opinions and observations - your mileage may vary.
"KNOW THY LEAGUE" - the Forum Funklord - 4/13/2009
Fantasy is managing stats ... roto is managing teams

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