Vickrey Systems for FAAB

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da_big_kid_94
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Vickrey Systems for FAAB

#1 Post by da_big_kid_94 »

I am interested in gearing views from my fellow Mastersballers about the Vickrey system of FAAB. We switched to CBS this year after 20+ years of doing it ourselves and we may not stay with them - so we are still looking to tweak. I'd like to hear about any positive or negative feelings on the subject. I do have one preconceived notion that may or may not be right - along the lines of why I can not understand 5 Card Stud, Jacks or better - for the first couple of rounds, why would one not simply bid their max FAAB bid and let the chips fall where they may. Seems to stifle the bidding process initially - you bid 100, second bid is 20 - you get him at 21. Of course as you spend you can't do that as effectively - but wouldn't that encourage hoarding if the tie breaker would come down to current position in standings?
These are my views based on my own opinions and observations - your mileage may vary.
"KNOW THY LEAGUE" - the Forum Funklord - 4/13/2009
Fantasy is managing stats ... roto is managing teams

Captain Hook

Re: Vickrey Systems for FAAB

#2 Post by Captain Hook »

I am not a fan simply because I think there is some skill in bidding for free agents - not just the who but how much and how much to use and how much to save.

Not sure the hoarding aspect is anything to worry about.....and aren't there roster limits?

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Todd Zola
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Re: Vickrey Systems for FAAB

#3 Post by Todd Zola »

As far far as the max goes, you run the risk of someone else thinking along the same lines and paying 95 and not 21 (pr whatever.)

I don't really like or dislike Vickrey. On occasion, I may find myself "overbidding" a little because of it, but whether a league uses it or not does not move the needle for me.

That said, something I do like instead of Vickrey is doing what the NFBC does and that is uses a $1000 FAAB budget. On paper, everything is relative -- a $50 out of a $100 appears the same as a $500 out of $1000 - but it really isn't.

To oversimplify, in one, you still can get 50 more $1 players, in the other, you can still get 500 more $1 players.

To me, it is almost like the $1000 has the same dynamic as Vickrey, it's hard to put into words, but the feel of bidding with $1000 is similar to Vickrey in that there is a protection element. I bid $421 for a guy with the next highest bid of $117 --OOPS. But, I am not screwed out of getting decent players later since I can still do A LOT with my $579 that is left -- maybe its a personal thing that you need to experience, but the $1000 FAAB provides a safety net if you "overpay" but not taking you out of the picture for impact guys down the line.

in keepers leagues, if the keeper $$ is tied to FAAB, an adjustment (obviously) needs to be made.
Catchers are like prostate exams -- comes a time where you can't put if off any longer, so you may as well get it over with and take it up the butt - The Forum Funklord

I'd rather be wrong for the right reasons than right for the wrong reasons - The Forum Funklord

Always remember, never forget, never say always or never. - The Forum Funklord

You know you have to seek therapy when you see one of your pitchers had a bad night and it takes you 15 minutes to find the team you have him on. - The Forum Funklord

AllstonRockCity

Re: Vickrey Systems for FAAB

#4 Post by AllstonRockCity »

I like the vickery system more than the traditional system, but it doesn't work with a large amount of faab (100 to 150, max) as that removes all risk and skill from the equation.
Kid, I see your point, but Todd nailed it, all it takes is 1 of your leaguemates to share that opinion and then you're down to $4 to last the season and its only April. And you can probably kiss the season goodbye.
The other great gamesmanship aspect of vickery is price enforcing. For example, 2 weeks ago Oswalt was available in my al only. Now, I had no desire at all to roster him but I still bid 19 (out of 140) to ensure that whoever did get him would be hamstrung by a 20+ salary. To me, the price enforcing aspect alone makes vickery much more fun and enjoyable than the traditional system.

da_big_kid_94
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Re: Vickrey Systems for FAAB

#5 Post by da_big_kid_94 »

Captain Hook wrote:I am not a fan simply because I think there is some skill in bidding for free agents - not just the who but how much and how much to use and how much to save.

Not sure the hoarding aspect is anything to worry about.....and aren't there roster limits?
Depends what you mean by roster limits - we're old school 4x4 $260 only league ultra style - 17 man reserve roster. We do not allow you to trade FAAB units, trade FAAB players or keep FAAB acquired players beyond the current season. The hoarding aspect, to me, occurs later in the season, where if you don't have 100 FAAB units left (let's use 100 as a max in this example), you can't get the next hot guy. Now you can bid your max and try and screw the guy who bid max... but if 2 or more held on to all their FAAB units, just seems like a form of waiver pickup to me - lowest standing gets the bid. And since you can't keep him, there's no incentive for the bottom half of the standings to bid on that player in most cases. So you're truly bidding against your competition in the standings.
These are my views based on my own opinions and observations - your mileage may vary.
"KNOW THY LEAGUE" - the Forum Funklord - 4/13/2009
Fantasy is managing stats ... roto is managing teams

da_big_kid_94
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Re: Vickrey Systems for FAAB

#6 Post by da_big_kid_94 »

AllstonRockCity wrote:I like the vickery system more than the traditional system, but it doesn't work with a large amount of faab (100 to 150, max) as that removes all risk and skill from the equation.
Kid, I see your point, but Todd nailed it, all it takes is 1 of your leaguemates to share that opinion and then you're down to $4 to last the season and its only April. And you can probably kiss the season goodbye.
The other great gamesmanship aspect of vickery is price enforcing. For example, 2 weeks ago Oswalt was available in my al only. Now, I had no desire at all to roster him but I still bid 19 (out of 140) to ensure that whoever did get him would be hamstrung by a 20+ salary. To me, the price enforcing aspect alone makes vickery much more fun and enjoyable than the traditional system.
I can see how that would work in certain leagues that allow FAAB acquired players to be kept ...however, in our leagues, all you are spending is money and available bidding units - no price enforcement here. Thanks for the insight.
These are my views based on my own opinions and observations - your mileage may vary.
"KNOW THY LEAGUE" - the Forum Funklord - 4/13/2009
Fantasy is managing stats ... roto is managing teams

da_big_kid_94
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Re: Vickrey Systems for FAAB

#7 Post by da_big_kid_94 »

Todd Zola wrote:As far far as the max goes, you run the risk of someone else thinking along the same lines and paying 95 and not 21 (pr whatever.)
I understand that, but I'm praying for any of my competitors to do just that in April. To me, to do it that soon ...you might have just as well paid 95 units for him at auction ..in which case, please do.
Todd Zola wrote:I don't really like or dislike Vickrey. On occasion, I may find myself "overbidding" a little because of it, but whether a league uses it or not does not move the needle for me.

That said, something I do like instead of Vickrey is doing what the NFBC does and that is uses a $1000 FAAB budget. On paper, everything is relative -- a $50 out of a $100 appears the same as a $500 out of $1000 - but it really isn't.

To oversimplify, in one, you still can get 50 more $1 players, in the other, you can still get 500 more $1 players.
I see the point, but is that not more likely to have greater impact on leagues with daily FAAB runs rather than weekly FAAB and transactions??
Todd Zola wrote:To me, it is almost like the $1000 has the same dynamic as Vickrey, it's hard to put into words, but the feel of bidding with $1000 is similar to Vickrey in that there is a protection element. I bid $421 for a guy with the next highest bid of $117 --OOPS. But, I am not screwed out of getting decent players later since I can still do A LOT with my $579 that is left -- maybe its a personal thing that you need to experience, but the $1000 FAAB provides a safety net if you "overpay" but not taking you out of the picture for impact guys down the line.
I see the theory behind this, but not necessarily the application. The missing element is dollars. I can see the strategy of trying to do this ...but I don't think any one will do it in reality when there are real dollars attached to that action .... and you probably aren't going to feel good about spending an extra $304 in real dollars.
Todd Zola wrote:in keepers leagues, if the keeper $$ is tied to FAAB, an adjustment (obviously) needs to be made.
Not a problem in our league ...can't keep an FAAB'er.
These are my views based on my own opinions and observations - your mileage may vary.
"KNOW THY LEAGUE" - the Forum Funklord - 4/13/2009
Fantasy is managing stats ... roto is managing teams

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Todd Zola
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Re: Vickrey Systems for FAAB

#8 Post by Todd Zola »

Re: daily versus weekly -- I did say it was an oversimplification ;)

Again, hard to express, maybe it is just that I am more willing to overpay in the $1000 FAAB leagues since the repercussions are not nearly as much of a handcuff as with smaller limits

Re: real money - none of my leagues require anything extra for a transaction of any kind so the dynamic of paying into the pot the FAAB amount is not relevant for me.
Catchers are like prostate exams -- comes a time where you can't put if off any longer, so you may as well get it over with and take it up the butt - The Forum Funklord

I'd rather be wrong for the right reasons than right for the wrong reasons - The Forum Funklord

Always remember, never forget, never say always or never. - The Forum Funklord

You know you have to seek therapy when you see one of your pitchers had a bad night and it takes you 15 minutes to find the team you have him on. - The Forum Funklord

da_big_kid_94
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Re: Vickrey Systems for FAAB

#9 Post by da_big_kid_94 »

Todd Zola wrote:Re: daily versus weekly -- I did say it was an oversimplification ;)

Again, hard to express, maybe it is just that I am more willing to overpay in the $1000 FAAB leagues since the repercussions are not nearly as much of a handcuff as with smaller limits

Re: real money - none of my leagues require anything extra for a transaction of any kind so the dynamic of paying into the pot the FAAB amount is not relevant for me.
Fair 'nuff. Thanks for the feedback, Todd.
These are my views based on my own opinions and observations - your mileage may vary.
"KNOW THY LEAGUE" - the Forum Funklord - 4/13/2009
Fantasy is managing stats ... roto is managing teams

AllstonRockCity

Re: Vickrey Systems for FAAB

#10 Post by AllstonRockCity »

da_big_kid_94 wrote:
AllstonRockCity wrote:I like the vickery system more than the traditional system, but it doesn't work with a large amount of faab (100 to 150, max) as that removes all risk and skill from the equation.
Kid, I see your point, but Todd nailed it, all it takes is 1 of your leaguemates to share that opinion and then you're down to $4 to last the season and its only April. And you can probably kiss the season goodbye.
The other great gamesmanship aspect of vickery is price enforcing. For example, 2 weeks ago Oswalt was available in my al only. Now, I had no desire at all to roster him but I still bid 19 (out of 140) to ensure that whoever did get him would be hamstrung by a 20+ salary. To me, the price enforcing aspect alone makes vickery much more fun and enjoyable than the traditional system.
I can see how that would work in certain leagues that allow FAAB acquired players to be kept ...however, in our leagues, all you are spending is money and available bidding units - no price enforcement here. Thanks for the insight.
So you don't have an in-season salary cap?? The part about hamstringing someone with a 20+ salary was speaking more to in-season cap management than keeping the guy. We can keep FAAB'd guys in our league, so that is a factor, but the in-season cap is a much bigger one.

da_big_kid_94
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Re: Vickrey Systems for FAAB

#11 Post by da_big_kid_94 »

AllstonRockCity wrote:
da_big_kid_94 wrote:
AllstonRockCity wrote:I like the vickery system more than the traditional system, but it doesn't work with a large amount of faab (100 to 150, max) as that removes all risk and skill from the equation.
Kid, I see your point, but Todd nailed it, all it takes is 1 of your leaguemates to share that opinion and then you're down to $4 to last the season and its only April. And you can probably kiss the season goodbye.
The other great gamesmanship aspect of vickery is price enforcing. For example, 2 weeks ago Oswalt was available in my al only. Now, I had no desire at all to roster him but I still bid 19 (out of 140) to ensure that whoever did get him would be hamstrung by a 20+ salary. To me, the price enforcing aspect alone makes vickery much more fun and enjoyable than the traditional system.
I can see how that would work in certain leagues that allow FAAB acquired players to be kept ...however, in our leagues, all you are spending is money and available bidding units - no price enforcement here. Thanks for the insight.
So you don't have an in-season salary cap?? The part about hamstringing someone with a 20+ salary was speaking more to in-season cap management than keeping the guy. We can keep FAAB'd guys in our league, so that is a factor, but the in-season cap is a much bigger one.
Nope ...no in season cap ...old rules on dump trades - you get one dump trade per team with a delta of +1 for players in final year or 25 or more units - after that? Gotta give one to get one.
These are my views based on my own opinions and observations - your mileage may vary.
"KNOW THY LEAGUE" - the Forum Funklord - 4/13/2009
Fantasy is managing stats ... roto is managing teams

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Todd Zola
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Re: Vickrey Systems for FAAB

#12 Post by Todd Zola »

da_big_kid_94 wrote: Nope ...no in season cap ...old rules on dump trades - you get one dump trade per team with a delta of +1 for players in final year or 25 or more units - after that? Gotta give one to get one.
The asterisk rule -- LOVE IT!!
Catchers are like prostate exams -- comes a time where you can't put if off any longer, so you may as well get it over with and take it up the butt - The Forum Funklord

I'd rather be wrong for the right reasons than right for the wrong reasons - The Forum Funklord

Always remember, never forget, never say always or never. - The Forum Funklord

You know you have to seek therapy when you see one of your pitchers had a bad night and it takes you 15 minutes to find the team you have him on. - The Forum Funklord

da_big_kid_94
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Re: Vickrey Systems for FAAB

#13 Post by da_big_kid_94 »

Todd Zola wrote:
da_big_kid_94 wrote: Nope ...no in season cap ...old rules on dump trades - you get one dump trade per team with a delta of +1 for players in final year or 25 or more units - after that? Gotta give one to get one.
The asterisk rule -- LOVE IT!!
***** Tis why the 1 unit catcher in his final year is like gold. Hiya , Dave Ross.
These are my views based on my own opinions and observations - your mileage may vary.
"KNOW THY LEAGUE" - the Forum Funklord - 4/13/2009
Fantasy is managing stats ... roto is managing teams

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